sbangs
In this guide I will talk about the technical aspects and legal aspects of internet broadcasting I hope it proves useful to you :)
image of option screen use this if u get stuck on where to place things :)
Bits you need
1 x computer
A connection to the internet preferably a USB modem
USB modem :
Router:
I will talk more about routers near the end of this guide as they have a different setup
At least 128 upload speed
Speed Test
And port 8000 unblocked on your firewall or the port you wish to use (not sure which port don’t worry il explain in moment :) )
There Are two basic options you can choose when using a USB modem
Please now proceed to the recording Tab of Vdj and go to broadcasting
And then broadcasting options
You will notice 2 options …
1.
Use Virtual DJ as a server :
this option allows you to use your own computer to broadcast ,
Available formats for this mode :
Are Shoutcast - mp3 or ice cast .ogg
Shout cast is in my opinion the best option here as mp3 will play in any player that supports streaming
Now you are asked to pick a bit rate , try 96kbs to start with and if you find this lags lower it , especially on slower connections
You are now asked to give a name to your stream
Call it what u wish to
Then you are asked to pick a number of listeners :
to work out how many listeners you can support , use this sum every listener takes up 14 kb of your memory so if you have 512 of ram and then you consider how much ram your applications need of this
You can have a rough idea of how many to choose , start low until you have that many tuned in ,
Remember the amount of bandwidth you have and your upload speed are also very important factors in picking the number of listeners you will allow
Please also take a moment to read the legal advise in the next section..:)
another important thing is
its crucial that on your firewall you unblock port 8000 or you cannot stream!
Here is the guide to adding an exception to windows firewall
http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html
for other firewalls consult your manual or ask your system admin still not sure email me at admin@skyfxlmedia.com il do my best to help
Option Two:
Stream to an external server
For this you need a host to host your external servers
International copyright law states that to play copyrighted music you need to pay royalties and have a licence for non private purposes , so if you intend your station to be listened to by any one else except your friends (about 10 of them)
You need to apply for a internet broadcasting licence
This can be done in two ways
You can pay for a hosting service which acquires a licence for you up to a certain number of listeners ie
Live 365!
however if you wish to make money from the station or advertise or have larger listener numbers you need to arrange to pay royalties also via a pro package.
or you can use a free host such as listen 2 my radio
such as listentomyradio!
and pay for a licence separately
for citizens of the Eu you can purchase a licence here
prslicencing
Now lets talk about the setup ..
in this mode you have the same options again
Available formats for this mode :
Are Shoutcast - mp3 or ice cast .ogg
Most Hosts prefer that you use Shoutcast
Now again you are asked to pick a bit rate , try 96kbs to start with and if you find this lags lower it , especially on slower connections
Now you will notice the box called host :
Your hosting company will provide the following info
Address : 70.84.232.223
Port : 8000
Place the address in the host box and the port in the port box
Now its crucial that on your firewall you unblock this port or you cannot stream!
Here is the guide to adding an exception to windows firewall
http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html
for other firewalls consult your manual or ask your system admin still not sure email me at admin@skyfxlmedia.com il do my best to help
You will also be asked to name the stream pick the name you wish
On sign up your host will have asked or provided a password to access the server
Place this in the box called password
Now press ok
You are now ready to stream to your external server
Broadcasting behind a router
a router is a device which allows a connection to be shared between computers ,
however this comes at a cost , your connection to the internet is not direct
your connection is routed
so broadcasting ports are not accessible on the internet so you cannot stream from vdj as a local server
unless you go to your router config and forward port 8000
you will find instructions for this in your router manual
if you find this to confusing or you do not want to bother with this simply broadcast to an external server it will work fine :)
I hope you have found this guide usefull
If you have any questions post them here or email me or msn me at
admin@skyfxlmedia.com
image of option screen use this if u get stuck on where to place things :)
Bits you need
1 x computer
A connection to the internet preferably a USB modem
USB modem :
Router:
I will talk more about routers near the end of this guide as they have a different setup
At least 128 upload speed
Speed Test
And port 8000 unblocked on your firewall or the port you wish to use (not sure which port don’t worry il explain in moment :) )
There Are two basic options you can choose when using a USB modem
Please now proceed to the recording Tab of Vdj and go to broadcasting
And then broadcasting options
You will notice 2 options …
1.
Use Virtual DJ as a server :
this option allows you to use your own computer to broadcast ,
Available formats for this mode :
Are Shoutcast - mp3 or ice cast .ogg
Shout cast is in my opinion the best option here as mp3 will play in any player that supports streaming
Now you are asked to pick a bit rate , try 96kbs to start with and if you find this lags lower it , especially on slower connections
You are now asked to give a name to your stream
Call it what u wish to
Then you are asked to pick a number of listeners :
to work out how many listeners you can support , use this sum every listener takes up 14 kb of your memory so if you have 512 of ram and then you consider how much ram your applications need of this
You can have a rough idea of how many to choose , start low until you have that many tuned in ,
Remember the amount of bandwidth you have and your upload speed are also very important factors in picking the number of listeners you will allow
Please also take a moment to read the legal advise in the next section..:)
another important thing is
its crucial that on your firewall you unblock port 8000 or you cannot stream!
Here is the guide to adding an exception to windows firewall
http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html
for other firewalls consult your manual or ask your system admin still not sure email me at admin@skyfxlmedia.com il do my best to help
Option Two:
Stream to an external server
For this you need a host to host your external servers
International copyright law states that to play copyrighted music you need to pay royalties and have a licence for non private purposes , so if you intend your station to be listened to by any one else except your friends (about 10 of them)
You need to apply for a internet broadcasting licence
This can be done in two ways
You can pay for a hosting service which acquires a licence for you up to a certain number of listeners ie
Live 365!
however if you wish to make money from the station or advertise or have larger listener numbers you need to arrange to pay royalties also via a pro package.
or you can use a free host such as listen 2 my radio
such as listentomyradio!
and pay for a licence separately
for citizens of the Eu you can purchase a licence here
prslicencing
Now lets talk about the setup ..
in this mode you have the same options again
Available formats for this mode :
Are Shoutcast - mp3 or ice cast .ogg
Most Hosts prefer that you use Shoutcast
Now again you are asked to pick a bit rate , try 96kbs to start with and if you find this lags lower it , especially on slower connections
Now you will notice the box called host :
Your hosting company will provide the following info
Address : 70.84.232.223
Port : 8000
Place the address in the host box and the port in the port box
Now its crucial that on your firewall you unblock this port or you cannot stream!
Here is the guide to adding an exception to windows firewall
http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html
for other firewalls consult your manual or ask your system admin still not sure email me at admin@skyfxlmedia.com il do my best to help
You will also be asked to name the stream pick the name you wish
On sign up your host will have asked or provided a password to access the server
Place this in the box called password
Now press ok
You are now ready to stream to your external server
Broadcasting behind a router
a router is a device which allows a connection to be shared between computers ,
however this comes at a cost , your connection to the internet is not direct
your connection is routed
so broadcasting ports are not accessible on the internet so you cannot stream from vdj as a local server
unless you go to your router config and forward port 8000
you will find instructions for this in your router manual
if you find this to confusing or you do not want to bother with this simply broadcast to an external server it will work fine :)
I hope you have found this guide usefull
If you have any questions post them here or email me or msn me at
admin@skyfxlmedia.com
Posted Mon 13 Nov 06 @ 2:55 pm
pdnmusic
SPANISH VERSION OF GUIDE
En esta guía se habla de aspectos técnicos y legales en la transmisión por Internet (broadcast)
Espero que te sea de utilidad.
(Imagen 1: Panel de opciones para VirtualDJ)
Elementos que necesitas:
- - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - -
Existen 2 opciones básicas a escoger usando un módem USB
> Abre VirtualDJ > Pestaña de GRABACIÓN (RECORD) > BROADCASTING > OPCIONES
1. VirtualDJ como Servidor
- Con esta opción usamos nuestro PC para transmitir (broadcast).
- Formatos Disponibles: MP3 para Shoutcast; OGG para Icecast.
- Bitrate (bits por segundo): Cuanto mayor sea, mejor calidad, pero requiere mayor velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet.
- Nombre del "stream": El nombre que prefieras.
- Numero de oyentes: Puedes calcular el máximo aproximado de la siguiente manera...
Cada oyente va a tomar unos 14kb (aprox.) de la memoria RAM de tu PC, entonces, si tienes 512Mb. de RAM y tienes en cuenta cuanta RAM necesitan los programas que ya tienes abiertos, te harás una idea del número que puedes tener/seleccionar.
También cabe tener en cuenta la cantidad de ancho de banda y la velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet que usa cada oyente.
* Por favor, lee los términos legales de la sección siguiente
* Otra punto crucial es tener desbloqueado el puerto que vayas a usar (normalmente el 8000)
Para desbloquearlo del FIREWALL de Windows mira esta http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">guía
Para otros FIREWALLS, otros programas u otros equipos consulta el propio manual.
2. Stream a un Servidor Externo
Necesitarás un hospedaje para tus servidores externos. O conectarte a algún servicio de servidor externo.
- - - * * * - - -
- Nota Legal -
Las Leyes de Copyright Internacional exigen que para reproducir música con Copyright debes pagar los royalties y tener una licencia para propósitos no privados.
Si lo que pretendes es que tu emisora la escuche alguien más que tus amigos (sobre unos 10), necesitas una Licencia de Broadcasting por Internet.
Se puede conseguir de 2 maneras:
a) Pagar un servicio de hospedaje (hosting)
Este adquiere una licencia por ti hasta un numero determinado de oyentes.
Por ejemplo: http://www.live365.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Live 365!
De todas maneras, si deseas ganar dinero con la emisora de radio, anuncios, o tener un número de oyentes importante necesitaras pagar los Royalties con un pack Pro
b) Usar un hospedaje Gratuito
Como por ejemplo: http://www.listen2myradio.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">listentomyradio!
Y pagar la licencia por separado (para ciudadanos de EU se puede comprar en: http://www.prs.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">prslicencing
- Nota Legal -
- - - * * * - - -
Veamos en cuanto a configuraciones:
- Con esta opción usamos nuestro PC para enviar la transmisión a un servidor donde se conectaran los oyentes, y no directamente a nuestro PC.
- Formatos Disponibles: MP3 para Shoutcast; OGG para Icecast. (Muchos sitios de hospedaje, prefieren Shoutcast)
- Bitrate (bits por segundo): Cuanto mayor sea, mejor calidad, pero requiere mayor velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet.
- Nombre del HOST: Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
- Address (Dirección): Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
- Port (Puerto): Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
IMPORTANTE: Desbloquea de tu FIREWALL u otros sistemas el puerto que te han indicado para usar en la emisión.
- Numero de oyentes: Puedes calcular el máximo aproximado de la siguiente manera...
Cada oyente va a tomar unos 14kb (aprox.) de la memoria RAM de tu PC, entonces, si tienes 512Mb. de RAM y tienes en cuenta cuanta RAM necesitan los programas que ya tienes abiertos, te harás una idea del número que puedes tener/seleccionar.
También cabe tener en cuenta la cantidad de ancho de banda y la velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet que usa cada oyente.
Para desbloquearlo del FIREWALL de Windows mira esta http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">guía
Para otros FIREWALLS, otros programas u otros equipos consulta el propio manual.
- Nombre del "stream": El nombre que prefieras.
- Password: Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
Anexo: Emitiendo a través de un ROUTER
Un Router es un dispositivo que permite compartir una conexión entre varios ordenadores y por lo tanto la conexión de tu PC a Internet no es directa (pasa por el router, esta "enrutada"), a diferencia de un módem USB.
Así pues los puertos desde donde se emite en tu PC no son accesibles directamente desde Internet, y por lo tanto, no puedes emitir con VirtualDJ como servidor local.
A menos que configures tu Router para redireccionar el puerto necesario (el que selecciones para emitir) desde el Router a tu PC, de esta manera cuando se accede a ese puerto desde Internet (los oyentes), el Router los redirige a la IP de red local de tu PC y el puerto deseado.
Como existe diversidad de marcas y modelos de Router en el mercado se aconseja que mires las instrucciones para redireccionar puertos en el manual de tu Router.
Si encuentras este tema algo confuso/complicado, mejor intenta emitir desde un servidor de hospedaje externo y no tendrás este problema.
(El documento original en Ingles incluye al final el correo-e del autor, para consultas, pero recuerda, siempre en Ingles)
En esta guía se habla de aspectos técnicos y legales en la transmisión por Internet (broadcast)
Espero que te sea de utilidad.
(Imagen 1: Panel de opciones para VirtualDJ)
Elementos que necesitas:
- Ordenador (Con tarjetas de sonido y VirtualDJ - evidentemente)
- Conexión a Internet por módem USB o ROUTER (preferiblemente con módem USB)
Se explicará más sobre los ROUTERS al final de la guía - Velocidad de SUBIDA de la conexión a Internet de como mínimo 128
Test de Velocidad - Puerto 8000 (o el que desees usar) no bloqueado por el FIREWALL de Windows, ROUTER, o cualquier otro dispositivo o programa (antivirus, ...)
- - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - -
Existen 2 opciones básicas a escoger usando un módem USB
> Abre VirtualDJ > Pestaña de GRABACIÓN (RECORD) > BROADCASTING > OPCIONES
1. VirtualDJ como Servidor
- Con esta opción usamos nuestro PC para transmitir (broadcast).
- Formatos Disponibles: MP3 para Shoutcast; OGG para Icecast.
- Bitrate (bits por segundo): Cuanto mayor sea, mejor calidad, pero requiere mayor velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet.
- Nombre del "stream": El nombre que prefieras.
- Numero de oyentes: Puedes calcular el máximo aproximado de la siguiente manera...
Cada oyente va a tomar unos 14kb (aprox.) de la memoria RAM de tu PC, entonces, si tienes 512Mb. de RAM y tienes en cuenta cuanta RAM necesitan los programas que ya tienes abiertos, te harás una idea del número que puedes tener/seleccionar.
También cabe tener en cuenta la cantidad de ancho de banda y la velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet que usa cada oyente.
* Por favor, lee los términos legales de la sección siguiente
* Otra punto crucial es tener desbloqueado el puerto que vayas a usar (normalmente el 8000)
Para desbloquearlo del FIREWALL de Windows mira esta http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">guía
Para otros FIREWALLS, otros programas u otros equipos consulta el propio manual.
2. Stream a un Servidor Externo
Necesitarás un hospedaje para tus servidores externos. O conectarte a algún servicio de servidor externo.
- - - * * * - - -
- Nota Legal -
Las Leyes de Copyright Internacional exigen que para reproducir música con Copyright debes pagar los royalties y tener una licencia para propósitos no privados.
Si lo que pretendes es que tu emisora la escuche alguien más que tus amigos (sobre unos 10), necesitas una Licencia de Broadcasting por Internet.
Se puede conseguir de 2 maneras:
a) Pagar un servicio de hospedaje (hosting)
Este adquiere una licencia por ti hasta un numero determinado de oyentes.
Por ejemplo: http://www.live365.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Live 365!
De todas maneras, si deseas ganar dinero con la emisora de radio, anuncios, o tener un número de oyentes importante necesitaras pagar los Royalties con un pack Pro
b) Usar un hospedaje Gratuito
Como por ejemplo: http://www.listen2myradio.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">listentomyradio!
Y pagar la licencia por separado (para ciudadanos de EU se puede comprar en: http://www.prs.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">prslicencing
- Nota Legal -
- - - * * * - - -
Veamos en cuanto a configuraciones:
- Con esta opción usamos nuestro PC para enviar la transmisión a un servidor donde se conectaran los oyentes, y no directamente a nuestro PC.
- Formatos Disponibles: MP3 para Shoutcast; OGG para Icecast. (Muchos sitios de hospedaje, prefieren Shoutcast)
- Bitrate (bits por segundo): Cuanto mayor sea, mejor calidad, pero requiere mayor velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet.
- Nombre del HOST: Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
- Address (Dirección): Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
- Port (Puerto): Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
IMPORTANTE: Desbloquea de tu FIREWALL u otros sistemas el puerto que te han indicado para usar en la emisión.
- Numero de oyentes: Puedes calcular el máximo aproximado de la siguiente manera...
Cada oyente va a tomar unos 14kb (aprox.) de la memoria RAM de tu PC, entonces, si tienes 512Mb. de RAM y tienes en cuenta cuanta RAM necesitan los programas que ya tienes abiertos, te harás una idea del número que puedes tener/seleccionar.
También cabe tener en cuenta la cantidad de ancho de banda y la velocidad de subida de la conexión a Internet que usa cada oyente.
Para desbloquearlo del FIREWALL de Windows mira esta http://www.brooksnet.com/setup/firewallsetup-sp2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">guía
Para otros FIREWALLS, otros programas u otros equipos consulta el propio manual.
- Nombre del "stream": El nombre que prefieras.
- Password: Datos facilitados por la compañía de hospedajes que has escogido.
Anexo: Emitiendo a través de un ROUTER
Un Router es un dispositivo que permite compartir una conexión entre varios ordenadores y por lo tanto la conexión de tu PC a Internet no es directa (pasa por el router, esta "enrutada"), a diferencia de un módem USB.
Así pues los puertos desde donde se emite en tu PC no son accesibles directamente desde Internet, y por lo tanto, no puedes emitir con VirtualDJ como servidor local.
A menos que configures tu Router para redireccionar el puerto necesario (el que selecciones para emitir) desde el Router a tu PC, de esta manera cuando se accede a ese puerto desde Internet (los oyentes), el Router los redirige a la IP de red local de tu PC y el puerto deseado.
Como existe diversidad de marcas y modelos de Router en el mercado se aconseja que mires las instrucciones para redireccionar puertos en el manual de tu Router.
Si encuentras este tema algo confuso/complicado, mejor intenta emitir desde un servidor de hospedaje externo y no tendrás este problema.
(El documento original en Ingles incluye al final el correo-e del autor, para consultas, pero recuerda, siempre en Ingles)
Posted Tue 14 Nov 06 @ 11:00 am
sbangs
if this guide helps try this one aslo :)
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/59874/General_Discussion/the_ultimate_guide_to_controllers___which_ones_right_for_you___and_tech_help__).html
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/59874/General_Discussion/the_ultimate_guide_to_controllers___which_ones_right_for_you___and_tech_help__).html
Posted Wed 15 Nov 06 @ 3:49 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
pdnmusic wrote :
Thanks who censored my Spanish translation of the Broadcast Guide!
Some hours of work for nothing...
Some hours of work for nothing...
Dont know who did that, but I made it available again...
Also, please post it in the spanish forum if you like ;)
Thanx for the translation, apreciate the work, and I know it took time...
So thanx for the effort, Pdnmusic ;)
Posted Wed 15 Nov 06 @ 10:54 pm
pdnmusic
dj-in-norway wrote :
Dont know who did that, but I made it available again...
Also, please post it in the spanish forum if you like ;)
Thanx for the translation, apreciate the work, and I know it took time...
So thanx for the effort, Pdnmusic ;)
pdnmusic wrote :
Thanks who censored my Spanish translation of the Broadcast Guide!
Some hours of work for nothing...
Some hours of work for nothing...
Dont know who did that, but I made it available again...
Also, please post it in the spanish forum if you like ;)
Thanx for the translation, apreciate the work, and I know it took time...
So thanx for the effort, Pdnmusic ;)
Really thanked dj-in-norway...
There was no problem to write it to Spanish Forum too, but at first, I just linked the Spanish users to this POST, and didnn't had a copy of the translated text (my mistake), so I couldn't paste it there...
As I've said, thanks dj-in-norway.
Posted Thu 16 Nov 06 @ 11:06 am
sbangs
heres some tips for any one who wants to set up their own server + networks :)
http://www.wpool.com/cablesharing/4.htm
http://www.wpool.com/cablesharing/4.htm
Posted Mon 25 Dec 06 @ 2:14 am
Wasley_26
Hello, I recently 'tried' to broadcast to mates via my pc. This is what i've got set up:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5136/testil5.jpg
Anyway, When I press broadcast it gives me a link, so I copy and paste that link to the friends that want to listein. When they click it (I thought it would open up a WMP) but all it says is 'This page cannot be found'.
Thanks
Woz
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5136/testil5.jpg
Anyway, When I press broadcast it gives me a link, so I copy and paste that link to the friends that want to listein. When they click it (I thought it would open up a WMP) but all it says is 'This page cannot be found'.
Thanks
Woz
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 12:39 pm
sbangs
do u have a router?
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 1:13 pm
Wasley_26
I do indeed. I've opened up the ports on the Pc I'm using now (8000 & 8001). But Do i need to open the ports down stairs (Where the router is).
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 1:56 pm
sbangs
you must enable portforwarding for 8000 and 8001 in the router
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 5:43 pm
Wasley_26
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1920/untitledrh7.jpg
Take a look at that and tell me if its right
Take a look at that and tell me if its right
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 6:36 pm
sbangs
that is correct but you must aslo log into your router
via its ip
via its ip
Posted Sun 22 Apr 07 @ 7:34 pm
Wasley_26
and how would I Do that ?!
Posted Mon 23 Apr 07 @ 4:40 pm
Dj Tolentino
If I don't have a router can I also broadcast by opening ports 8000 and 8001 as I already did?
Posted Mon 23 Apr 07 @ 6:51 pm
pdnmusic
Wasley_26 wrote :
and how would I Do that ?!
check your router manual
it ill explain how to connect to the router on a web browser and forward the ports
Posted Tue 24 Apr 07 @ 3:09 pm
pdnmusic
Dj Tolentino wrote :
If I don't have a router can I also broadcast by opening ports 8000 and 8001 as I already did?
If you don't have a router, I supose you have a USB MODEM or direct connection from one Pc to the Internet. So you don't need to manage PORTS.
You have to do this on ROUTERS because they share the connection to many PCs on a LAN, so when someone want to connect to the PORT 8000 (or the one you have set up on VDJ to broadcast), the ROUTER doesn't knows which LAN PC has to forward this, unless you configured it.
Posted Tue 24 Apr 07 @ 3:11 pm
Wasley_26
Well, I do have a router & I have opened the ports. But still, it doesnt work :(
Posted Wed 25 Apr 07 @ 4:44 pm
Dj Tolentino
Ok everything seems fine for broadcasting now... At least it doesn't say "page not found" when I insert the adress they give me. Instead it opens a small window asking if I want to Open or Save the document... What shall I do? because in both cases I can't hear anything...
DJ Tolentino
DJ Tolentino
Posted Wed 25 Apr 07 @ 10:32 pm
pdnmusic
Dj Tolentino wrote :
Ok everything seems fine for broadcasting now... At least it doesn't say "page not found" when I insert the adress they give me. Instead it opens a small window asking if I want to Open or Save the document... What shall I do? because in both cases I can't hear anything...
DJ Tolentino
DJ Tolentino
You should have to OPEN it, and it may open a WMP or WINAMP to play the music.
If not, try to OPEN the URL on a Windows Media Player or WINAMP, directly. Both players have the "OPEN URL" option.
Posted Thu 26 Apr 07 @ 10:04 am
sbangs
what format are you casting in mp3 or .ogg?
Posted Thu 26 Apr 07 @ 10:20 am
