DJ VinylTouch
groovindj wrote :
As Keith says, we're referring to tracks that have a slowly drifting BPM, not ones that change suddenly from one BPM to another.
Having a fluid beatgrid type system would make it easier.
Having a fluid beatgrid type system would make it easier.
This is pretty much what multibpm analysis is trying to achieve, just more primitive/requing more manual intervention - Algoriddim have not reinvented anything here, they just applied AI to the problem.
I found for the old songs, especially if the drummer gets carried away, I found the fluctuactions can be significant at times, but yes, this improvement can be useful to help free us from the manual work (live or prepared).
What we are both trying to point out I think is it has to be used wisely...it can be used to create a terrible sounding mix through overreliance on it + sync (the proof of this would be to take two variable bpm tracks, especially where are pauses/significant variance in tempo of each and play them with sync, then hear the result). I (personally) do see it's value. Having the ability to set a "Project BPM" (i.e. Ableton/DAW style) to sync to would be key to me, because then you know the result should have a consistent/understandable BPM.
Posted Fri 08 Nov 24 @ 3:55 pm
PhantomDeejay
groovindj wrote :
As Keith says, we're referring to tracks that have a slowly drifting BPM, not ones that change suddenly from one BPM to another.
Having a fluid beatgrid type system would make it easier.
George, have you tried using the Algoriddim system?
As Keith says, we're referring to tracks that have a slowly drifting BPM, not ones that change suddenly from one BPM to another.
Having a fluid beatgrid type system would make it easier.
George, have you tried using the Algoriddim system?
I have already responded on this above. And I have my reasons to ask.
A tempo that has drifted (but is stable) is a different thing from an actively fluctuating tempo (where you can't beatgrid 8 beats in a row, because they don't sit nice on the grid)
I get the "simple" case. I frankly do.
You have one track, it starts at 128.00 BPM, then the drummer does a break at 1:20 and from that point onwards he A) misses grid position by a few ms OR B) keeps playing at 127.93 BPM, OR C) Both.
That's the simple case. And it's just a matter of having the BPM scan engine look forward just a few beats (let's say 8) to determine LOCAL BPM and phase.
That's simple. And it's solution is kinda simple.
I'm asking what the software should do if you're trying to mix on an area that the following 32 beats (as an example) are not stable... First 8 beats are 128 BPM, the next 8 beats is where the drummer screwed up, then you have 8 beats with 127 BPM, then 8 more beats with 129 BPM (drummer trying to catch up) and finally you're back to 128 BPM "steady"
What should the software do if you try to mix there ?
You can't "forbid" users from trying to mix on this position, can you ?
Nor you can tell them that they should not expect a good result from a feature that advertises that can do just that. :P
So yes, I stand by what I said. A DJ that would beatmatch "by ear" would avoid to beatmix (to use the correct term) the track in this area, and would either A) use a different style of mixing, or B) select another part of the track, that's "stable"
And my question remains valid:
What should the software do on a case where the track is not "slowly drifitng away" but the fluctuation/drifting/trainwreck e.t.c. is more intense ?
It needs to do something (even if that something is "nothing")..
Posted Fri 08 Nov 24 @ 9:23 pm
chirro
I am a DJ who works exclusively at weddings. Most of the music I play is performed by human drummers, so there are always slight tempo fluctuations throughout the song. Many of the songs were clearly played without any metronome, so even if the beatgrid is more or less correct for the first few bars, it soon becomes useless. Virtual DJ's variable BPM system is quite poor and very labor-intensive to adjust; it doesn't work well with these tracks.
However, in DJay, You have a perfect beatgrid from the first moment. All the time-based effects, loops, etc., work correctly. I can overlay beats from DJay's loop library perfectly in sync without any problem, and most importantly, I can make perfect transitions between songs with fluctuating tempos without the need of constantly adjusting the decks.
I can only say one thing: try Algoriddim DJay with old tracks, and you’ll see how it simplifies your life. It saves many hours of work and opens up a world of possibilities.
As I mentioned in the main message, it would be a dream come true for me if Virtual DJ had Fluid Beatgrid; it would undoubtedly be the best DJ software in the world.
As a colleague mentioned, for a wedding DJ, Fluid Beatgrid is even more important than stems.
Best regards
However, in DJay, You have a perfect beatgrid from the first moment. All the time-based effects, loops, etc., work correctly. I can overlay beats from DJay's loop library perfectly in sync without any problem, and most importantly, I can make perfect transitions between songs with fluctuating tempos without the need of constantly adjusting the decks.
I can only say one thing: try Algoriddim DJay with old tracks, and you’ll see how it simplifies your life. It saves many hours of work and opens up a world of possibilities.
As I mentioned in the main message, it would be a dream come true for me if Virtual DJ had Fluid Beatgrid; it would undoubtedly be the best DJ software in the world.
As a colleague mentioned, for a wedding DJ, Fluid Beatgrid is even more important than stems.
Best regards
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 11:05 am
DJ VinylTouch
The important points from what was said here is
However I think @PhantomDeejay does see the value in improving the gridding behaviour...I don't think he said they wouldn't do it, he was just asking what you guys/the software should do in the "bad" case.
I also had added that there is value in putting in a "project" BPM that is settable independent of all track BPMs that can be used as a master to sync to - that would help with(but not necessarily solve) the "bad" case.
This feature would definitely be a welcome addition for everybody though.
- It's more important to you. It's not a universal truth amongst all DJs - I know a few DJs personally that do weddings who will disagree with you on that...I'm one of them.
- There are times when fluid beatgrids + sync will not save you in transitions. It's especially true for songs with extreme fluctuations in tempo/bpm - using 2 such songs with sync will result in something that's bound to sound terrible (call this the "bad" case).
However I think @PhantomDeejay does see the value in improving the gridding behaviour...I don't think he said they wouldn't do it, he was just asking what you guys/the software should do in the "bad" case.
I also had added that there is value in putting in a "project" BPM that is settable independent of all track BPMs that can be used as a master to sync to - that would help with(but not necessarily solve) the "bad" case.
This feature would definitely be a welcome addition for everybody though.
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 12:10 pm
kradcliffe
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
[*] It's more important to you. It's not a universal truth amongst all DJs - I know a few DJs personally that do weddings who will disagree with you on that...I'm one of them.
[*] It's more important to you. It's not a universal truth amongst all DJs - I know a few DJs personally that do weddings who will disagree with you on that...I'm one of them.
There is a company called Mastermix in the UK selling albums full of old tracks that have been re-gridded to keep a constant tempo. Re-produced by Paul Dakeyne ex DMC and recently Denon DJ. They are very popular with function or wedding DJs it seems but quite expensive for what they are.
Proves there is a market for tracks with a fixed tempo. Personally I think they sound "off" but each to their own. As I said before there are many DJs out there who HAVE to mix everything together.
https://mastermixdj.com/product-category/tracks/re-grids/
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 12:30 pm
DJ VinylTouch
I use and make my own quantized edits/redrums so I know what you're talking about.
Quantized edits are done against constant BPM (the "Ableton" case @groovindj referred to). If you've done a few, you may have noticed that there a tracks with such severe fluctuations in certain regions after warping to match the BPM, that you have to reconsider you approach (e.g. change the project BPM and redo the warping or do a redrum/replay of the instrumental in constant BPM and relay the acappella over it). That's introducing a stable BPM to an unstable track, which would make beatmatching + blending + the sound predictable.
Fluid Beatbrids by itself is not really doing this, it's keeping the fluctuations but allowing the software to know/react to what those BPM fluctuations are in regions (I think. DJay now supports quantized export but that's really the Ableton case and not how you'd normally use DJay for live mixing). If you use this as you master to sync against, you would be introducing its instability to the other track, which can make the result sound weird depending of how severe those fluctuations are and when they happen. It would be even worse if the second track also has fluctuations.
Don't get me wrong - I think this is a very valuable feature and I would love to see it implemented too as soon as reasonably possible, but we have to be realistic about what it achieves/how to use it and not necrssarily overgeneralize on things.
Quantized edits are done against constant BPM (the "Ableton" case @groovindj referred to). If you've done a few, you may have noticed that there a tracks with such severe fluctuations in certain regions after warping to match the BPM, that you have to reconsider you approach (e.g. change the project BPM and redo the warping or do a redrum/replay of the instrumental in constant BPM and relay the acappella over it). That's introducing a stable BPM to an unstable track, which would make beatmatching + blending + the sound predictable.
Fluid Beatbrids by itself is not really doing this, it's keeping the fluctuations but allowing the software to know/react to what those BPM fluctuations are in regions (I think. DJay now supports quantized export but that's really the Ableton case and not how you'd normally use DJay for live mixing). If you use this as you master to sync against, you would be introducing its instability to the other track, which can make the result sound weird depending of how severe those fluctuations are and when they happen. It would be even worse if the second track also has fluctuations.
Don't get me wrong - I think this is a very valuable feature and I would love to see it implemented too as soon as reasonably possible, but we have to be realistic about what it achieves/how to use it and not necrssarily overgeneralize on things.
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 12:59 pm
groovindj
I think you negative guys are making mountains out of molehills really. The Algoriddim system works well, and has had a lot of praise from the DJ community. They also (as here) are now asking for a similar system to be introduced in other software.
Seriously, DJs who play older tracks have been waiting for something like this since the earliest days of DJ software. If it's not for you, don't use it. It's optional in djay Pro too.
Seriously, DJs who play older tracks have been waiting for something like this since the earliest days of DJ software. If it's not for you, don't use it. It's optional in djay Pro too.
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 2:16 pm
DJ VinylTouch
@groovindj you truly are missing the point and I don't see why. We aren't saying it's not a good feature, we are asking about a specific circumstance (which you still haven't answered), and pointing out why caution has to be used to make sure the feature isn't abused to produce undesired results.
If you don't agree that's ok, but stop commenting on one part of the commentry and ignoring the whole picture... we've never said it shouldn't be implemented..I'm all for it.
If you don't agree that's ok, but stop commenting on one part of the commentry and ignoring the whole picture... we've never said it shouldn't be implemented..I'm all for it.
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 2:26 pm
groovindj
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
a specific circumstance
That's the mountain. I really can't see it being an issue. As I and others have already said, most of these tracks have small variations taking place over the whole length of the track - not sudden jumps up/down in a few seconds. Any tracks that switch BPM suddenly are already catered for by VDJs current system (that's what it's for).
Of course it's up to the DJ to decide what to mix and when, and if there's some track that does crazy things with the BPM (you've not named one) then the DJ can simply chop mix or use some other method to get from A to B.
I don't think anyone's claiming that the system will be able to mix the unmixable - just that it will be very helpful and save a lot of manual labour.
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 2:35 pm
DJ VinylTouch
I do agree with all of that. It's up to the devs to decide the move, but there is value and I think they see it. I think I also liked the suggestion you made of having a project BPM setting independent of the tracks being mixed....that would effectively be live quantizing both songs (and I don't think that's don't currently in other implementations).
Posted Sat 09 Nov 24 @ 2:54 pm
C the T-RexDJ
I am not sure if it's relevant, but sometimes older recordings fail to sync when using the Sampler Instruments
Posted Tue 12 Nov 24 @ 5:46 pm
PANOSV
PhantomDeejay wrote :
And my question remains valid:
What should the software do on a case where the track is not "slowly drifitng away" but the fluctuation/drifting/trainwreck e.t.c. is more intense ?
It needs to do something (even if that something is "nothing")..
And my question remains valid:
What should the software do on a case where the track is not "slowly drifitng away" but the fluctuation/drifting/trainwreck e.t.c. is more intense ?
It needs to do something (even if that something is "nothing")..
In my point of view (i play mostly 90's and a few 80's) i would want the beatgrid to follow the track and inform the dj that the beat has some changes (maybe with a red marker like in the variable bpm analysis) and the dj would consider the way the track will be mixed....nothing else... if i wanted to fix the bpm i would make a warp in ableton... although if i know where the bpm diff's i will use another mixing technique...
Posted Wed 13 Nov 24 @ 11:47 am
Niels (cph)
Besides all the mixing specific points made above, a precise beatgrid is also useful for loops, beat jump, fx, lighting control, and probably more.
Finally, a beat grid analyzer á la the Algoriddim one would save DJs obsessed with precise grids a lot of time spent on manually adjusting grids.
Finally, a beat grid analyzer á la the Algoriddim one would save DJs obsessed with precise grids a lot of time spent on manually adjusting grids.
Posted Sun 24 Nov 24 @ 8:24 am
nicethings
The sad truth; unless you're playing fully quantised tracks, nothing in any DJ software beats DJay Pro's Fluid Beatgrid. I was a VDJ evangelist till I tried this. It means you can practically mix almost anything over the last 70 years without a thought. I have to assume the have some IP patent on it, as it makes zero sense that this isn't in anything else? The only thing that comes close is Ableton Live's warp analysis, and that isn't even real-time. Any other new features are irrelevant to this. It is what it is.
Posted Mon 02 Dec 24 @ 6:42 pm
groovindj
Well we've got a shiny new sampler...
Posted Mon 02 Dec 24 @ 6:48 pm
DJ VinylTouch
nicethings wrote :
Any other new features are irrelevant to this. It is what it is.
With a due respect, that is your opinion - you don't speak for all of us.
Rather than actually look at what they have delivered (it really is groundbreaking from a remixer perspective), you cast it away as irrelevant because it's not some other feature - that is very telling as to what is driving you/the level you think on as a DJ.
However, with respect this topic here was a little whisper about it in the Facebook group:
That should put your mind at ease. Be patient...they do know this is important to many.
Posted Mon 02 Dec 24 @ 7:12 pm
kradcliffe
Be no need for those Mastermix Re-Grid CDs at £35 a pop soon hopefully (not that I buy them anyway).
Posted Mon 02 Dec 24 @ 7:17 pm
nicethings
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
With a due respect, that is your opinion - you don't speak for all of us.
Rather than actually look at what they have delivered (it really is groundbreaking from a remixer perspective), you cast it away as irrelevant because it's not some other feature - that is very telling as to what is driving you/the level you think on as a DJ.
nicethings wrote :
Any other new features are irrelevant to this. It is what it is.
With a due respect, that is your opinion - you don't speak for all of us.
Rather than actually look at what they have delivered (it really is groundbreaking from a remixer perspective), you cast it away as irrelevant because it's not some other feature - that is very telling as to what is driving you/the level you think on as a DJ.
I never said I speak for everyone who uses VDJ? It appears your statements may speak volumes about your own opinions.
I use DJ software for mixing music, and keeping a good mood going. Others may have different reasons. And that's ok.
The opportunity to change genres, tempos, and eras of music, without a lot of prep and pre-thought, for me, is enhanced opportunity to expand the use of my library in a harmonic way, and in turn access unique audiences.
VDJ is brilliant at what it does, it's just not got the massive advantage, in terms of mixing, that DJay Pro has right now, which is a shame; as the algorithm and implementation for stems is superior. It is what it is.
Posted Tue 03 Dec 24 @ 11:47 pm
chirro
NICETHINGS, I’m totally with you. Virtual DJ is amazing at what it does, but Algoriddim DJay Pro has surpassed the competition with its implementation of Fluid Beatgrid.
Being able to use cloud music is great, but in many places, the internet connection is poor and unstable. It’s unusable.
Stem Swap Sampler? Lots of fun, but if you don’t have an accurate beatgrid, it’s barely useful.
I still think that if Virtual DJ had Fluid Beatgrid, it would be the undisputed number one. I hope it happens soon.
Cheers.
Being able to use cloud music is great, but in many places, the internet connection is poor and unstable. It’s unusable.
Stem Swap Sampler? Lots of fun, but if you don’t have an accurate beatgrid, it’s barely useful.
I still think that if Virtual DJ had Fluid Beatgrid, it would be the undisputed number one. I hope it happens soon.
Cheers.
Posted Wed 04 Dec 24 @ 8:27 am
DJ VinylTouch
@devs when you do eventually upgrade the BPM analyzer, a small request would be to allow for the following:
Stretch goals:
(Minor) please don't break existing integrations like SoundSwitch.
- the option to consider the BPM as constant for analysis by default
Virtually all new songs fit that profile. - A per song flag, to respect the gridding it already has.
I know there is the global option (keepBPMonAnalyzerUpdate, which defaults to no I think), but that is global and there are constant BPM tracks and select tracks I and I'm sure others, have taken the time to grid properly, that does not need to be undone by new auto analysis.
Stretch goals:
- Allow for a "project/master BPM" (outside of all decks), to act as the master deck for BPM sync/beatlock.
That's a rough equivalent of ableton's warp - Give an option to batch export files with the new analysis and synced with 1) (including all it's stems separately)
That's the equivalent of a regrid, and could be really helpful for usage on standalones (CDJ/XDJ and Denon Prime players), as well as for making edits/remixes in DAWs.
It's probably a natural extension of the CDJ Export feature. StemSwap bank recording can benefit from this too if recording sample loops from older, variable BPM songs.
(Minor) please don't break existing integrations like SoundSwitch.
Posted Wed 04 Dec 24 @ 12:01 pm
